A bit o/t but I figured here was as good a place as any. I've got a Subaru Forrester and want to put in a sub. Someone at work mentioned an 8" that fits inside the spare tire well under the floor in the back of the car. Apparently this fits inside the wheel itself (ie tucked inside the inner diameter of the rim). Anybody know who might make such a beastie?

-Zeke



just say you weren't paying much attention...

I know exactly what you mean. I have seen just such a device in the Crutchfield catalog. I do not remember whether it was made by Sony or Pioneer, but it was one of those two, I think.

Unfortunately, I saw it in the catalog over two years ago and haven't seen it since. It is possible that it was unpopular and has been discontinued. A sub tucked so deep into the car's spare tire well needs to be pretty large to radiate the sound well, and I don't think 8" is going to cut it for most cars. My guess is that it WAS discontinued for that reason.

Better yet, talk to Doug "Tanstaafl" Burnside on this BBS. He (or perhaps his installer) has created a custom subwoofer box for a much larger and more powerful woofer that fits into his spare tire well. He was able to pull this off because (if I recall correctly) he removed his factory-original full-size spare and got one of those tiny "space-saver" spare tires to put in its place. The leftover space is now used for the custom subwoofer enclosure. I'm pretty sure he runs a 10" in that space now. Doug, elaborate upon this for our friend Ezekiel?

On the other hand, it'd be much simpler just to give up some trunk space for a Q-logic box. That's what I've done and I haven't looked back.

___________
Tony Fabris

has created a custom subwoofer box for a much larger and more powerful woofer that fits into his spare tire well.

Well, sort of like that... My car (a Taurus station wagon) has the spare wheel (a 14" Space Saver type) mounted standing upright in the left rear corner of the cargo compartment. The spare wheel is covered by a large plastic trim panel. We mounted the 10" subwoofer (a dual voice coil cobalt series Orion) onto the plastic trim panel (with suitable reinforcement on the inside of the panel with 3/4" MDF and fiberglas) and turned the spare wheel around backwards so the magnet portion of the speaker nestled right inside the dish of the wheel with about 1/4" clearance all around. In the trim panel we cut a treble clef design about 10" tall, backed with carpeting (on the inside of the panel) that matches the carpeting in the rest of the car. You have to look carefully to find the treble clef, it's a totally stealth installation.

Note that this installation precludes any kind of sealed enclosure unless you want to get very elaborate, and even then I doubt you could seal it and still have reasonable access to the spare tire. So I am running my subwoofer free air (it was not designed to do so) but apparently due more to luck and great acoustics of a station wagon than cleverness, it sounds very good.

I am currently building a new competition car, another Taurus wagon but later model, and the spare tire on that one is like ther Forester, under the rear floor. I'm not going to do the same trick of putting the subwoofer inside the spare tire in this car. I have seen that done in another Taurus wagon, and the sound quality wasn't there, with the speaker firing straight up at the roof of the car. Also, I don't want to give up that much utility -- virtually any time I put anything in the back of the car, I'd be covering the speaker. So with the new car, we are building a custom sub enclosure that will extend the right-side wheel well intrusion all the way back to the tailgate and will hold a pair of 10" subs.. This will eat up a 5 inch by 18 inch section of my floor space, but the enclosure will be shaped and vinyl covered to be a perfect match for the interior, and will again be totally stealth. Unless you knew just what the interior of a late model Taurus wagon was supposed to look like, you'd never know it was there. I did replace the full size spare under the floor with a space saver, and the room I gained was enough to install two amplifiers and a thermostatically controlled cooling fan, and still leave the wheel dish free for tools, jumper cables, tow strap, tiedowns, oil, first aid kit, flares, etc.

Anyway, the net result is this: there is room inside the dish of a 14 or 15 inch spare wheel to place a 10" subwoofer. How you do the physical mounting of the speaker... well, that will vary from car to car.

Good luck.

tanstaafl.


"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Sorry, I remembered it wrong. I thought you'd given up a full-size spare to make room for the woofer.

___________
Tony Fabris

I thought you'd given up a full-size spare to make room for the woofer.

You remembered it right... except that it was a space saver spare all along. It's the new car that I traded the full size for the space saver, and that was just to make room for the amplifiers.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Wow, that Taurus rig sounds very impressive. I think I might have to challenge my local installers to see what we can put together. The spare is a full 16" rim so there should be some room. The only other options I can think of are to put it under the passenger side front seat or take out one of the side storage compartments, neither of which is a great space either. Trouble with wagons is unless you build into the side wall, there's not a very good place (ie trunk (that's boot to some of you)) to put a sub. I don't usually fill the back with stuff unless I'm on a long trip, so the sound shouldn't be too muffled.

What do you all think would be better a 10" free air or a sealed 8" if I can't get an enclosure into the spare well (with the spare)?

-Zeke


just say you weren't paying much attention...

What do you all think would be better a 10" free air or a sealed 8"

I don't have any scientific evidence for this, but...

I have never considered an 8" speaker to be a subwoofer. To me, an 8" speaker is a mid-range speaker biased towards the lower frequencies.

What follows now is strictly my opinion, based on what I have seen. I am not an expert, so this is probably worth about what it's costing you.

I am a big fan of 10" subwoofers. You can run a 10" sub full range (no crossover) and get incredibly rich midrange, and yet still pick up the bass and sub-bass frequencies. Or, you can cross them over at about 90Hz and get very clean, tight bass and sub-bass.

Unless you spend some pretty serious money, most 12" subwoofers seem to come off rather dark and muddy sounding, unless you have the gain cranked up to the point where they can run efficiently at which point the bass and sub-bass is overwhelming the rest of the system.

There's a Lexus that competes in the events I go to (not in the same class, thank heavens) that has a pair of very expensive 12" subs (I'm guessing in the $1000 apiece range) that even at very low volume are smooth, velvety, full, rich, with incredible presence thumping the back of your seat. But that car is the exception. We're figuring that he has about a $60,000 stereo in his car if you counted the many hundreds of hours of custom work at $60 an hour. Probably $20-$30,000 worth of actual componentry.

So, IMHO, if you've got a choice of a pair of 8" speakers or a single 10, go with the 10.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

With you around for advice, there _is_ free lunch. I trust your 'non expert' opinion more than most things I'd find published. A good ear is worth a lot. I'll see what I can come up with and post the results and pics (it might be a while though, as I just got a negative scanner and my toy budget is wiped for a while).

-Zeke

just say you weren't paying much attention...

hello all....I will add my $.02...There was a compact sub that Pioneer made a few years ago that was designed to fit into the rim of a space-saver tire. It was made of plastic with a special acoustic chamber to amplify the bass. I bought one when I first ventured into upgrading my stereo system. It was fairly cheap and hid away well without losing the spare. Problem was, it did not take power well at all. I ended up going through two of them. Even at modest volume, the speaker cone had a habit of separating away from the coil. This produced a horrible buzzing sound when you hit the lows. I took my second one apart to see if I could fix it (sealed unit!) and to my suprise, found a tiny 3 inch paper cone. What a bummer. Needless to say, it is not a good sub to concider. Go with a full sized one and get a good install, you will be much happier with the sound, I was :) John

Technoweenie
12 GB Blue/Red MK2

Right now I've got a pretty good plan in my head, but I've promised to finish my basement before I do this (some motivation). I'm going to take some measurements of the rim profile and create a simple revolved 3-d model in Autodesk. I'll scale it down a little to allow for the wall thickness of the fiberglass. Then I'm going to print some 1:1 sections (of the void in the center) that I"ll trace onto cardboard & cut. I'll set these up like a divider from a case of liquor. (ie sliced halfway across and set up in a grid) I'll then use this as a core to wrap in fiberglass & get a nice stiff box. I'm going to secure it to a 3/4" thick circle of MDF with sheet metal screws and silicone to seal the airgap. The MDF will already have been cut out and drilled to accept the 10" woofer. I'll then drill oodles of holes in my back deck and cover them (on the backside) with a fine metal mesh to keep crap off the woofer. This way, I've not attached anything to the back deck, get all the volume available. It looks like some good subs only requre 0.6 cu. ft. of airspace for a sealed enclosure (per Crutchfield). I don't think this should be too hard to get inside a full 15" alloy rim with as shallow a woofer as possible. I'll post results & pics when I get this done (probably sometime in spring).

I'd be interested in people's thoughts on this plan.

-Zele

just say you weren't paying much attention...

I'd be interested in people's thoughts on this plan.

Sounds very good to me.

Does your spare lie flat or is it mounted upright along one side of the trunk?

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

It's horizontal under the back deck (Forrester is a station wagon) inside the vehicle compartment.

-Z

just say you weren't paying much attention...

It's horizontal under the back deck

Hmmm... I have seen an installation done this way in a car that was very similar to mine (Taurus station wagon), the difference being that I have a space saver spare that mounts vertically back in one corner of the cargo compartment, and Taurus wagons with full size spares mount theirs under the rear floor like your Forrester.

My 10" subwoofer is mounted free-air in my (vertical) spare tire and the sound quality is (IMHO) exceptionally good. The one I saw/heard mounted flat under the rear floor did not have the sound quality I wanted. I don't know if it was the location of the speaker, the type of speaker, the amplifier, or just a general lack of tuning and tweaking (it took me weeks to tune mine the way I wanted it) but I liked my setup a lot better. This is not to say that yours won't come out perfect!

The other disadvantage to mounting in-floor in a wagon is that you then get to choose between carrying cargo or hearing your subwoofer. By the time the grocery clerk stacks three grocery bags on top of your subwoofer, your bass response is going to be gone! The acoustics in my car are so sensitive that if I even put the rear seatbacks in their upright position (i.e., not folded down flat) I have to retune everything and even then it won't sound right.

I have found, though, that by careful, thoughtful tuning and a willingness to experiment and break a few rules, it is usually possible to get any car stereo system that has decent components (enough power, good quality speakers and at least one subwoofer) to sound pretty good.

Please let us know how it works out.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

I'm not sure I'm as critical as you are about sound quality, I just want some extended range, especially at low volume. I usually have the window cracked open at 80 Mph to appease my beagle who rides in the back. Needless to say this does not help reduce the cabin noise.

The vast majority of the time I've got nothing back there. I fold the seats down and the dog sits towards the front. A muffled ride back from the grocer is not a big deal compared to my 2 hours commuting daily. I did some major work on the basement this weekend (thanks to good ol' Dad) so I'm getting closer. I'll be certain to post some results & pics when done.

-Zeke


just say you weren't paying much attention...

8" Sub to fit in spare tire

Y'know, it just reached my attention that you are talking about an 8" sub here. There may well be room for a 10" sub. There is certainly room diameter-wise, depth would be the tricky part, and it would be a function of how much offset the wheel had (i.e., the amount of "dish" to the wheel) and how close your floor was to the wheel when the wheel was in place.

In my Taurus wagon with a 135-80 R-14 space saver spare, my 10" Orion cobalt series subwoofer is mounted on the inside of my spare wheel cover (it would be the equivalent of your floor) and the rear of the speaker has between 1/4" and 1/2" clearance from the wheel.

You would be enormously more satisfied with a 10" speaker than you would be with 8". Subwoofers of the same diameter will have different depths, so start checking specifications to find one that (a) fits your wheel well; and (b) meets your frequency response requirements. You could end up with a really great sounding car.

tanstaafl.





"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Yeah. I was thinking 8" when I first posted, but I'm going to go for the 10" as sentiment was so strong around here. There are a few that don't go too deep and require only 0.6 cu.ft.

I'm looking at the Polk dX, Infinity Kappa or maybe the Sony ES Xplod (dumb ass name & thankfully that horrendous red would be hidden). Does anyone know if the less expensive (and shorter) subs (ie:Cerwin Vega Stealth, Kenwood, Pioneer) give decent performance or should I step up and spend the dough?

just say you weren't paying much attention...

I'm looking at the Polk dX, Infinity Kappa or maybe the Sony ES Xplod (dumb ass name & thankfully that horrendous red would be hidden).

I am very happy with my Polk dX, however, I've got it in a proper Q-logic box so I can't vouch for its performance in a custom enclosure in a spare tire.

I'd stay away from the Xplod line. I have no experience with the products, but stuff like that sounds like an "all style and no substance" kind of thing.

Anyone remember the bit from that movie, I think it was Judge Reinhold playing a stereo salesman selling an inferior (but more macho-looking) stereo to a gullible young couple... Was that in "Ruthless People"? Anyway, every time I see ads for the Xplod stuff, that's what I think of.

___________
Tony Fabris

I have had nothing but good things to say about the Xplode line of car audio products.
From their head units (non-geek friend bought one, I tried to sell him on Empeg, but he uses hotmail of all things ), to their 3-way 6x9's, and the subs apparently are the best Xplode product! (Well, in Canada anyways, not sure about other international models.)
Give it a listen to at the local stereo shop, I am sure you will not be disappointed with the value.

Smoker_Man
#080000449 MkII - 36Gb Blue

Like I said, I have no personal experience with the products, I only object to the image, which makes the products look substandard (whether they actually are or not is another matter). I get the feeling it's marketed to this crowd.

___________
Tony Fabris

no way, u got it all wrong. The explod stuff is phat. who carez if its all red. i just got some explod 6x9s and they sound ausome. and i aint no rice boy racer eether.

Rex

I was playing with the Xplod tube subs at Fry's the other day and whooooo that thing has some punch. :)

Calvin

I disagree. The riceboy crowd consists of people trying to make their car LOOK fast. For example, sticking on an extra tailpipe that goes to no where. Adding fake gauges, chopping the springs and ruining the ride to make it look slammed. Etc. Typically, the riceboy crowd would remove extra weight out of the car to "gain horsepower" that includes speakers, extra seats, and so on. :-)

I think the Xplod line is being marketed towards the stereo competition people. Stereo people get looks and points for having a nice looking as well as nice performing system.

Calvin

My problem with listening at the local stereo shop is that the room is nothing like my car, so what might be great there might not be so good for me. I don't know. It's also weird having the salesman hovering around the whole time too, just to switch between em. Creepy.

Can the frequency range specs in Crutchfield be trusted or are they just ad fluff straight from the manufacturers? I like specs. I know they don't tell the whole story, but they're ususally not a bad way to go.

Good to hear the Sony's treated you right. I'm a little chary of their stuff after my last Sony head unit died at 1.5 years old.

Here's what I've gathered to learn so far: ported enclosures can be 'boomy' at certain frequencies, while sealed enclosures don't go as loud (but are more accurate), but are there BIG differences between the $89 Infinity Kappas and those in the $180 range? What should I look for in construction?

Also, why is the Polk Momo M1100 $300?

So many questions, but since I'm doing a custom box, I want to put the best speaker into it that I can without spending $$ needlessly.

-Zeke

just say you weren't paying much attention...

Can the frequency range specs in Crutchfield be trusted or are they just ad fluff straight from the manufacturers?

Well the frequency ranges aren't necessarily representative of the actual RESPONSE of the speaker. Sure, a speaker might go all the way down to 20hz, but what that number doesn't tell you is (for example) the speaker has a huge presence peak at 255hz and the response at 20hz is barely audible.

What one really needs to see is graphs of a given speaker's frequency response. The only problem is that even THAT is governed to a certain extent by the enclosure. So you can't really win.

In the end, I only use the on-paper frequency range as a rough guide.

Here's what I've gathered to learn so far: ported enclosures can be 'boomy' at certain frequencies, while sealed enclosures don't go as loud (but are more accurate),

Ported boxes don't necessarily have to sound boomy, but they will tend to have a frequency peak at a specific frequency which you'll need to plan and adjust around. A sealed box will have a flatter frequency response without as much of a single big peak. And like they say in the Crutchfield catalog, sealed boxes need more powerful speakers and more wattage. Just make sure that your speaker and enclosure are properly matched-- certain speakers were made for sealed boxes, others for ported boxes, for example. And you have to get the box volume right.


but are there BIG differences between the $89 Infinity Kappas and those in the $180 range?

On paper, you should be seeing differences in power handling, efficiency, and frequency response. In real life, you should see differences in longevity and flatness of frequency response.

___________
Tony Fabris

I have a Phase Linear 10" sub, it's very flat (something like 4" front to back). Sounds good too, but this is in an enclosure...

Hugo